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Talk:Azir/@comment-26034614-20150901201037/@comment-11218751-20150904075550
"I know what his command range is, I just always assumed the soldier auto attacked anything around it as long as you were in command range. If that's not the case then I'm wrong, but if you look the soldier's auto attacks have 375 range, so If I'm right then that is near 1200 range. Not really the point either way, the point is he outranges any bruisers. " You are right, but most of the time Azir won't make use of his "1200" range, since soldiers' attacks are melee, rather than ranged. So in order to make use of the attacks, he has to make his soldiers stay super close to targets in order to make use of his soldiers, so most likely he can just make use of 800-1000 range. The only situation I can think of when he can make use of his full range is when enemies are fleeing and stepping inside soldier's auto attack range (either by stupidity or by force because of having no choice). Does that happen often? No. Plus, his soldiers' attacks have windup time, so most of the time if enemies stay at the perimeter of soldiers' attack range, they can dodge the attacks by just moving when the attacks are winding up. "Aside from high range DPS being the only thing similar and that it takes until at least level 9 to get that really high range on JInx, Jinx dies if people jump on her assuming they're equally fed. Azir has the ability to dash away, or ult them away, or just try and out dps them while Kiting with the slow from his Q that also repositions his soldiers. That with high range, which even if it's only 800, is still higher than most champions, gives an Azir way more safety than a Jinx will ever have with just range. " You really seem to forget that most of the time Azir players don't use their Q to reposition themselves so that they can use it to escape. Most of the time Azir players use Q to engage so that enemies stay in their range. Especially in early game, when his Q cooldown is considerably high, even if they store one soldier in their pockets, they only have effectively 450 range to escape (counting his W's cast range). Also, in order to use his Q effectively to engage at one target, he has to be in effective range of 875 to be able to slow enemies, that is, the distance between him and his enemies has to be at most 875 . So saying he has 1200 range, without considering the fact that he actually has to stay considerably closer than many mages (many mages have spells with larger range than Azir's Q, without having to be in 875 range) in order to have more effectiveness. Like I said before, many mages have similar ranges in their spells including those consisting of cc (yes 1200 range). The only thing that Azir excels is his mobility, which is very limited in "League of Mobility". And like I said before, Azir's spells are telegraphic (I still stand by my words). As long as you stay out of his soldiers' range you are very unlikely getting gutted by his soldiers. Many mages have instant, point-blank spells that are way easier to land than Azir. You are thinking that Azir has more advantages because of his E, but to me this way of thinking is very shortsighted. (And no, I am not saying this is not fair to Azir. In fact, this offers more counterplay to Azir, because in order to give him some more counterplay for having this huge range, it's good to make his bread-and-butter spell have much shorter range, so at least his safety can be threatened if enemies play it right.) "Basically, you're assuming that one part of something has to apply all other parts of it. In this case, you're saying that since Azir's range makes him safe, which is just part of what makes him safe, then Jinx is also a champion with long range, and thus also safe. That's not how the game works, and If I remember correctly that's actually a logical fallacy. " That was your words, not mine. You were implying since Azir had longer range than some mid laners, his safety was pretty much guaranteed against most assassins and bruisers. It's like saying "some adcs have long-ranged auto attacks and spells, their safety is pretty much guranteed against most assassins and bruisers." The logical fallacy is your problem, not mine. "Now, let me ask you, how are you deciding what makes an ability objectively better from another? If Azir hits you with two auto attacks from a soldier, then it's already one of the highest scaling regular abilities in the game. If he hits you with five then it IS the best scaling in the game. If you have three assassins trying to jump on you, then Azir's ultimate is infinitely better than a Syndra ultimate. If you want to kill one person, Syndra is better at that. Saying some champions have stronger abilities is only applicable when you have two champions with basically the same role, such as Darius and Garen pre rework, otherwise it just doesn't work. " I was talking about his whole kit, and the word "objectively" is really unneccessary, since our opinions are all subjective. Yes he does have better teamfighting power thanks to his R, which is a very strong offensive/defensive spell. He and his team can make good use of his R to make plays. Nevertheless, ever since his E knockup is gone, he has no longer had better cc, in terms of his kit than many mid laners. Many zoning mages have better cc than him, due to Azir having zero hard crowd control regular spell. Xerath has arguably better kit in terms of cc and range if you just compare both kits without cosidering their ultimates. Even if we consider their only hard crowd control abilities (Xerath's E and Azir's R), in terms of range, Xerath is still arguably better, although the downside is that Xerath's E can only hit one person and is a slower projectile, but he has a kit revolving around large-scale, long-ranged and point-blank zoning, so giving his E a bit of counterplay is acceptable in concept. Anyways, in Azir's case, having his E knockup removed means only one thing. Most assassins and bruisers with instant gapclosers as their regular abilities can abuse him as long as his R is on cooldown. Azir has nothing to stop that since his R is on cooldown, apart from his mobility spell E, which is gated by his soldiers' position and his E range, and if he has none of those, there is nothing to stop them. And it is so much easier than before to bait out both of these spells to eliminate Azir. "Are we even thinking of the same champion here? His Q moves almost instantly, and at a very high speed, unless you just have really long range and can farm from there (Ziggs), you are not going to be able to avoid his Q consistently. Especially during hectic teamfights." Of course it's almost instant if you are standing close to Azir's soldiers if you are against him. Come on, we all know that the closer a projectile is towards a 'destination' (at the same constant speed), the sooner it will arrive the desination. His Q projectile is only slightly faster than Nidalee's Q, and the speed is almost the same as Lux's Q. It's not "instant" or "fast" by any stretch of means. So yes, you can avoid it consistently if you pay attention to his soldiers' locations and his Q cooldown (for example, whether he has used his Q recently or not). "Aside from that, you say he's useless if he wastes all his soldiers as if that's a real weakness. What mage isn't useless if they manage to miss or waste all their damage?" I never said it was a real weakness. Your words, not mine. I only used that as an example to show that Azir's Q and W can be easily telegraphed and avoided as long as you PAY ATTENTION. "After watching a video of it at a quarter speed, the soldiers do in fact move the second Azir presses Q, so unless you meant the soldiers moving to you is a windup time, you're just outright wrong on that or it's so quick it doesn't matter" By "windup" time I mean projectile speed, sorry if I create any confusion, but it does take seconds for Azir's soldiers to move to a destination if the destination is >450 away from the soldiers. Have you ever tried moving soldiers from a distance like this before? If not, try it in a custom game, you will know what I am talking about. "I'd agree that his ult isn't up for every teamfight later game....if he wasn't almost always played with 40% cdr, which puts his ultimate at a 60 second cooldown rank three, more than enough to be up for every teamfight unless you enjoy strolling through unwarded enemy jungle while they have a Rengar or something." Azir's full potential cannot be realised if you are playing Azir wtih 40% CDR, especially after they removed the CDR>attack speed passive and replaced it with a passive on his W that doesn't benefit from CDR. 2 Morellonomicons used to be excellent on Azir because he benefited from CDR a lot, and 60-second-cooldown ultimate could really be achieved back in the days. Nonetheless, it's impossible for Azir to reach that anymore if he wants to achieve his full potential. the difference of 20 seconds or more in cooldowns is huge and it can greatly impact him, but it really doesn't matter as long as he learns to play safe when his ultimate is on cooldown. "This next thing you said honestly made me think you were trolling rather than wanting a serious discussion. " OH, "THANKS FOR BRINGING UP YOUR ASSUMPTIONS AS IF THEY ARE FACTUAL AND USE THEM TO DEMEAN THOSE WHO OPPOSE YOUR OPINIONS, DOC". " "The argument of "hur dur he has massive range to zone them out" is indefensible because that's what he does" You literally just admitted that he has massive range to zone them out, and then go on to say he needs more despite zoning them out being "what he does". Even his zoning is only really telegraphic in the sense that he has soldiers. That doesn't mean you can do anything about it. If you try to walk past them they stab you. If you try to go around them or through them it's basically an easy slow and even more damage. " You act like as if there is nothing you can do about it. Have you ever heard of the words "positioning" and "observation"? These are the keys to counter him and his soldiers. No one forces you to go around these soldiers for him or enemy minions, when you are surrounded by them. An assassin or bruiser with instant (point-and-click) gapcloser can easily negate his slow and fight him. A Zed can easily outplay Azir due to his long-ranged pokes and instant gapcloser and escape with his W and R. The "swapping with shadows" blink mechanic can be used to completely negate Azir's slow, allowing Zed to ignore his soldiers and go straight to him as long as Azir's R is on cooldown. There is no counterplay for Azir to use against their engages as long as Azir's R is on cooldown. (And no, his E is not a counterplay if you use it evasively. It's called "evasive" for a reason. You are using it as an escape. Not all evasive spells are counterplay, if it is your only evasive spell with long cooldown.) "I've seen professional teams zoned by a single Azir. I don't care if you dislike the game being balanced around them, they're the best, or at the very least better than you or I, and a single champion can basically shut down an entire professional team from doing anything. If his Zoning was so avoidable that wouldn't happen. " Do we have to nerf Xerath too because I've seen professional teams zoned by a single Xerath? Azir's zoning is avoidable, if you pay attention to it, period. (If you don't, that's likely your problem than Azir's champion design problem.) ""Do we have to nerf his E as well because he has larger ranges on his abilities than most of the mid laners? Just because Azir has one mobility spell which is his E, and has relatively better zoning and teamfight power, that key part of his kit, that used to allow him to counter brusiers' and assassins' engages, is nerfed?" ....Yes? It sounds like you're arguing against yourself here. Azir has long range, High zoning power, High teamfight power, and extremely high damage. He could blow up the enemy assassin just by jumping on them and mashing Q and auto's on them. Often before they could even retaliate, and if they could, he would ult them away. Most don't even have gapclosers that outrange him, so they even have to struggle to get to him first as well. Now he either chooses to ult them away, or pull out his damage to reposition. Maybe, just maybe, he already has arugably the strongest defensive CC/wall ability in the game, and doesn't need more options. " How many times do I have to tell you his R has long cooldown and it's NOT always available to him? "He could blow up an assassin by jumping on them and ...." If he jumps on them, he is giving assassins a chance to retaliate and assassinate him, many assassins have instant mobility to avoid his Q (for example Zed's blink, or Diana's R). It's so easy to engage him if you have instant gapclosers. It's also easier to miss your ultimate if you are against champions with blink or untargetability like Zed, LeBlanc and Fizz. His ultimate has so much counterplay: short range, easy to miss (especially against the champions I mentioned above with blink and untargetability), and windup time and moderate speed (yes the windup time is short, but it's still there. If you are standing at the outer perimeter of his ultimate range you can walk away and take no damage from his ultimate as long as you pay attention). "Azir's mana problems are basically nonexistent late game, and his E cooldown is about 8 seconds with max CDR. That's not that long when he already has his ultimate AND his range to go with it. E-Q combo isn't even really necessary for defensive use, Q-E or W-Q-E work fine in most cases for escapes. The E-Q shenanigans are mostly for playmaking or just really extending a wall jump for an escape. " My comment is mostly directed at his E cooldown (and to some extent his Q cooldown too. A few seconds without Q can mean life or death against the bursty assassins and high dps bruisers, but his Q cooldown is short late game so I don't even bother spelling it out for you.). "A good quick engage on any enemy squishy is a win for the enemy team. Don't cite something that generic as if it's an azir specific weakness. As for hard CC, he stands so far back that often you either aren't in range, or need to use something like Malphite ultimate on just him to catch him. " I never cited it as his "weakness". It was an example to show that Azir only has R (which is not enough) to counter most assassins' and bruisers' quick engages, and that's not even always available. Stop assuming I am making no sense by assuming I implied something just because I oppose your opinions. That's really low and nonsenscial. "Now, can you stop whining as if he's an unplayable champion when he's clearly still a strong pick if you can just take the time to actually learn him, ..." I never said he was an unplayable champion. My stance is always clear: "Azir has nothing apart from his R (long cooldown again) to counter most assassins and bruisers, and other zoning mages have better chance against them because they have regular hard cc abilities (including snares. They are not hard crowd control but they are enough to stop most assassins and bruisers from engaging), which is non-existent for Azir anymore due to E knockup removal. And if I want to play a champion for range and zoning, I would choose other zoning mages like Lux, Ezreal (for his Q and R and mobility) and Xerath instead of Azir because these champions perform zoning much better than Azir". I never said he was unplayable. In fact, I still think he can make plays if he is under the hands of a skilled player, but why would I choose Azir over, say Xerath or Lux, who can easily cc assassins and bruisers and prevent them from retaliating with their regular snare/stun abilities? If you do not agree with my opinions, fine, but don't act like I am an imbecile who wants to balance the game around only my favourite champions or my main champions. Learn to agree to disagree and respect opposing opinions, would you? You can keep replying but I won't reply to you anymore on this topic since some of your assumptions are very disrespectful and demeaning to me and I won't bothering reasoning with a guy who doesn't know the word "respect". P.S. My proposed change for Azir is as follows: Riot could have removed his E shield and damage (or nerfed his E shield but removed his E damage), and kept his E knockup, movement speed nerf, and Q nerf intact. That way playing against him would not have felt as obnoxious as it used to be, and would have offered more counterplay since he would still have been slower and his Q wouldn't have done as much damage as before.